Greg D Bertrand
First SEC filing: July 13, 2016 · Latest: Sept. 12, 2025
Insider at
Insider transactions
Price change vs current quote, split-adjusted for corporate actions since the filing — not benchmarked, not annualized, not size-weighted
| Date | Ticker | Code | Shares | Price | Value | Owned after | Δ own | A/D | vs now |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Sept. 11, 2025 | SYY | F | 247 | $80.19 | $19,807 | 69,853 Direct | -0.35% | Disposed | -3.4% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Sept. 2, 2025 | SYY | F | 861 | $80.47 | $69,285 | 70,100 Direct | -1.21% | Disposed | -3.7% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Aug. 22, 2025 | SYY | F | 2,016 | $80.98 | $163,256 | 70,961 Direct | -2.76% | Disposed | -4.3% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Aug. 21, 2025 | SYY | A | 35,215 | · | · | 35,215 Direct | · | Acquired | (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Aug. 21, 2025 | SYY | A | 13,235 | · | · | 72,977 Direct | +22.15% | Acquired | (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Aug. 11, 2025 | SYY | F | 1,507 | $80.65 | $121,540 | 59,742 Direct | -2.46% | Disposed | -3.9% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| July 31, 2025 | SYY | F | 3,934 | $80.11 | $315,153 | 61,249 Direct | -6.04% | Disposed | -3.3% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| July 31, 2025 | SYY | A | 8,879 | $80.11 | $711,297 | 65,183 Direct | +15.77% | Acquired | -3.3% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| July 22, 2025 | SYY | M 10b5-1 | 40,000 | · | · | 39,918 Direct | -50.05% | Disposed | (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| July 22, 2025 | SYY | S 10b5-1 | 40,000 | $80.00 | $3,200,000 | 56,304 Direct | -41.54% | Disposed | -3.1% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| July 22, 2025 | SYY | M 10b5-1 | 40,000 | $51.22 | $2,048,800 | 96,304 Direct | +71.04% | Acquired | 51.3% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Jan. 2, 2025 | SYY | M 10b5-1 | 43,750 | · | · | 0 Direct | -100.00% | Disposed | (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Jan. 2, 2025 | SYY | S 10b5-1 | 43,750 | $77.00 | $3,368,750 | 56,304 Direct | -43.73% | Disposed | 0.6% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Jan. 2, 2025 | SYY | M 10b5-1 | 43,750 | $52.42 | $2,293,375 | 100,054 Direct | +77.70% | Acquired | 47.8% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Jan. 2, 2025 | SYY | S 10b5-1 | 4,277 | $77.00 | $329,329 | 56,304 Direct | -7.06% | Disposed | 0.6% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Dec. 4, 2024 | SYY | S 10b5-1 | 21,844 | $80.00 | $1,747,520 | 60,581 Direct | -26.50% | Disposed | -3.1% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Sept. 11, 2024 | SYY | F | 247 | $78.50 | $19,390 | 82,425 Direct | -0.30% | Disposed | -1.3% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Sept. 3, 2024 | SYY | F | 1,736 | $77.97 | $135,356 | 82,672 Direct | -2.06% | Disposed | -0.6% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Aug. 21, 2024 | SYY | A | 35,939 | · | · | 35,939 Direct | · | Acquired | (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Aug. 21, 2024 | SYY | A | 13,647 | · | · | 84,408 Direct | +19.29% | Acquired | (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Aug. 12, 2024 | SYY | F | 1,371 | $75.63 | $103,689 | 70,761 Direct | -1.90% | Disposed | 2.5% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Aug. 1, 2024 | SYY | F | 13,852 | $76.44 | $1,058,847 | 72,132 Direct | -16.11% | Disposed | 1.4% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Aug. 1, 2024 | SYY | A | 35,697 | $76.44 | $2,728,679 | 85,984 Direct | +70.99% | Acquired | 1.4% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Sept. 11, 2023 | SYY | A | 4,245 | · | · | 4,245 Direct | · | Acquired | (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Sept. 11, 2023 | SYY | A | 1,671 | · | · | 50,287 Direct | +3.44% | Acquired | (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Sept. 1, 2023 | SYY | F | 2,514 | $69.65 | $175,100 | 48,616 Direct | -4.92% | Disposed | 11.3% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Aug. 10, 2023 | SYY | A | 26,480 | · | · | 52,960 Direct | +100.00% | Acquired | (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Aug. 10, 2023 | SYY | A | 10,199 | · | · | 51,130 Direct | +24.92% | Acquired | (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Oct. 28, 2022 | SYY | S 10b5-1 | 12,000 | $85.00 | $1,020,000 | 40,931 Direct | -22.67% | Disposed | -8.8% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Sept. 1, 2022 | SYY | F | 1,920 | $82.22 | $157,862 | 52,931 Direct | -3.50% | Disposed | -5.8% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Aug. 18, 2022 | SYY | A | 30,619 | · | · | 30,619 Direct | · | Acquired | (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Aug. 18, 2022 | SYY | A | 5,829 | · | · | 54,851 Direct | +11.89% | Acquired | (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| July 29, 2022 | SYY | F | 13,281 | $87.28 | $1,159,166 | 49,022 Direct | -21.32% | Disposed | -11.2% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| July 29, 2022 | SYY | A | 29,979 | · | · | 62,303 Direct | +92.75% | Acquired | (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| April 21, 2022 | SYY | M 10b5-1 | 50,000 | · | · | 43,750 Direct | -53.33% | Disposed | (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| April 21, 2022 | SYY | S 10b5-1 | 50,000 | $90.00 | $4,500,000 | 32,324 Direct | -60.74% | Disposed | -13.9% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| April 21, 2022 | SYY | M 10b5-1 | 50,000 | $52.42 | $2,621,000 | 82,324 Direct | +154.68% | Acquired | 47.8% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| March 16, 2022 | SYY | S 10b5-1 | 800 | $78.30 | $62,640 | 818 Indirect | -49.44% | Disposed | -1.0% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| March 11, 2022 | SYY | S 10b5-1 | 500 | $80.74 | $40,370 | 1,008 Indirect | -33.16% | Disposed | -4.0% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Feb. 16, 2022 | SYY | M 10b5-1 | 75,526 | · | · | 0 Direct | -100.00% | Disposed | (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Feb. 16, 2022 | SYY | S 10b5-1 | 75,526 | $85.43 | $6,452,186 | 32,324 Direct | -70.03% | Disposed | -9.3% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Feb. 16, 2022 | SYY | M 10b5-1 | 75,526 | $40.59 | $3,065,600 | 107,850 Direct | +233.65% | Acquired | 90.9% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Jan. 26, 2022 | SYY | F | 1,297 | $77.07 | $99,960 | 32,324 Direct | -3.86% | Disposed | 0.5% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Jan. 26, 2022 | SYY | M | 2,463 | · | · | 75,526 Direct | -3.16% | Disposed | (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Jan. 26, 2022 | SYY | M | 2,463 | $40.59 | $99,973 | 33,621 Direct | +7.90% | Acquired | 90.9% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Sept. 1, 2021 | SYY | F | 1,080 | $79.65 | $86,022 | 31,158 Direct | -3.35% | Disposed | -2.7% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Aug. 27, 2021 | SYY | S 10b5-1 | 7,230 | $80.00 | $578,400 | 32,238 Direct | -18.32% | Disposed | -3.1% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Aug. 19, 2021 | SYY | A | 41,358 | · | · | 41,358 Direct | · | Acquired | (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Aug. 19, 2021 | SYY | A | 5,923 | · | · | 39,468 Direct | +17.66% | Acquired | (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Dec. 14, 2020 | SYY | G | 4,858 | · | · | 33,545 Direct | -12.65% | Disposed | (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Dec. 7, 2020 | SYY | M 10b5-1 | 36,403 | $38.89 | $1,415,713 | 74,806 Direct | +94.79% | Acquired | 99.3% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Dec. 7, 2020 | SYY | S 10b5-1 | 36,403 | $76.97 | $2,801,939 | 38,403 Direct | -48.66% | Disposed | 0.7% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Dec. 7, 2020 | SYY | M 10b5-1 | 36,403 | · | · | 0 Direct | -100.00% | Disposed | (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Aug. 24, 2020 | SYY | S 10b5-1 | 1,134 | $57.95 | $65,715 | 38,403 Direct | -2.87% | Disposed | 33.7% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Aug. 20, 2020 | SYY | A | 49,613 | · | · | 49,613 Direct | · | Acquired | (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Aug. 20, 2020 | SYY | A | 7,467 | · | · | 39,537 Direct | +23.28% | Acquired | (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Aug. 17, 2020 | SYY | F | 1,062 | $59.54 | $63,231 | 32,070 Direct | -3.21% | Disposed | 30.1% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Aug. 17, 2020 | SYY | A | 2,396 | · | · | 33,132 Direct | +7.80% | Acquired | (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Jan. 10, 2020 | SYY | M 10b5-1 | 2,292 | · | · | 36,403 Direct | -5.92% | Disposed | (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Jan. 10, 2020 | SYY | S 10b5-1 | 2,292 | $85.03 | $194,889 | 30,736 Direct | -6.94% | Disposed | -8.9% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Jan. 10, 2020 | SYY | M 10b5-1 | 2,292 | $38.89 | $89,136 | 33,028 Direct | +7.46% | Acquired | 99.3% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Jan. 9, 2020 | SYY | M 10b5-1 | 900 | · | · | 38,695 Direct | -2.27% | Disposed | (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Jan. 9, 2020 | SYY | S 10b5-1 | 900 | $85.06 | $76,554 | 30,744 Direct | -2.84% | Disposed | -8.9% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Jan. 9, 2020 | SYY | M 10b5-1 | 900 | $38.89 | $35,001 | 31,644 Direct | +2.93% | Acquired | 99.3% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Jan. 6, 2020 | SYY | M 10b5-1 | 35,000 | · | · | 39,595 Direct | -46.92% | Disposed | (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Jan. 6, 2020 | SYY | S 10b5-1 | 35,000 | $83.92 | $2,937,200 | 30,744 Direct | -53.24% | Disposed | -7.7% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Jan. 6, 2020 | SYY | M 10b5-1 | 35,000 | $38.89 | $1,361,150 | 65,744 Direct | +113.84% | Acquired | 99.3% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Dec. 20, 2019 | SYY | M 10b5-1 | 47,643 | · | · | 0 Direct | -100.00% | Disposed | (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Dec. 20, 2019 | SYY | S 10b5-1 | 47,643 | $85.00 | $4,049,655 | 30,744 Direct | -60.78% | Disposed | -8.8% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Dec. 20, 2019 | SYY | M 10b5-1 | 47,643 | $33.40 | $1,591,276 | 78,387 Direct | +154.97% | Acquired | 132.0% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Dec. 17, 2019 | SYY | G | 2,250 | · | · | 30,744 Direct | -6.82% | Disposed | (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Nov. 18, 2019 | SYY | M | 2,571 | · | · | 0 Direct | -100.00% | Disposed | (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Nov. 18, 2019 | SYY | M | 2,994 | · | · | 0 Direct | -100.00% | Disposed | (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Nov. 18, 2019 | SYY | S | 1,225 | $81.61 | $99,972 | 32,994 Direct | -3.58% | Disposed | -5.0% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Nov. 18, 2019 | SYY | M | 2,571 | $38.89 | $99,986 | 34,219 Direct | +8.12% | Acquired | 99.3% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Nov. 18, 2019 | SYY | S | 1,225 | $81.61 | $99,972 | 31,648 Direct | -3.73% | Disposed | -5.0% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Nov. 18, 2019 | SYY | M | 2,994 | $33.40 | $100,000 | 32,873 Direct | +10.02% | Acquired | 132.0% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Nov. 1, 2019 | SYY | M 10b5-1 | 25,000 | · | · | 50,637 Direct | -33.05% | Disposed | (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Nov. 1, 2019 | SYY | S 10b5-1 | 25,000 | $81.06 | $2,026,500 | 29,879 Direct | -45.55% | Disposed | -4.4% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Nov. 1, 2019 | SYY | M 10b5-1 | 25,000 | $33.40 | $835,000 | 54,879 Direct | +83.67% | Acquired | 132.0% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Sept. 24, 2019 | SYY | S | 10,000 | $78.81 | $788,100 | 29,879 Direct | -25.08% | Disposed | -1.7% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Aug. 21, 2019 | SYY | A | 75,929 | · | · | 75,929 Direct | · | Acquired | (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Aug. 16, 2019 | SYY | F | 6,455 | $72.25 | $466,374 | 39,879 Direct | -13.93% | Disposed | 7.3% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Aug. 16, 2019 | SYY | A | 19,239 | · | · | 46,334 Direct | +71.01% | Acquired | (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Dec. 1, 2018 | SYY | F | 1,637 | $67.40 | $110,334 | 27,095 Direct | -5.70% | Disposed | 15.0% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Aug. 23, 2018 | SYY | A | 74,649 | · | · | 74,649 Direct | · | Acquired | (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Jan. 10, 2018 | SYY | M 10b5-1 | 40,000 | · | · | 0 Direct | -100.00% | Disposed | (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Jan. 10, 2018 | SYY | M 10b5-1 | 41,038 | · | · | 40,000 Direct | -50.64% | Disposed | (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Jan. 10, 2018 | SYY | S 10b5-1 | 40,000 | $60.76 | $2,430,400 | 28,683 Direct | -58.24% | Disposed | 27.5% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Jan. 10, 2018 | SYY | M 10b5-1 | 40,000 | $29.96 | $1,198,400 | 68,683 Direct | +139.46% | Acquired | 158.6% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Jan. 10, 2018 | SYY | S 10b5-1 | 41,038 | $60.76 | $2,493,469 | 28,683 Direct | -58.86% | Disposed | 27.5% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Jan. 10, 2018 | SYY | M 10b5-1 | 41,038 | $29.96 | $1,229,498 | 69,721 Direct | +143.07% | Acquired | 158.6% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Dec. 1, 2017 | SYY | F | 1,734 | $57.73 | $100,104 | 28,683 Direct | -5.70% | Disposed | 34.2% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Nov. 22, 2017 | SYY | G | 915 | · | · | 30,417 Direct | -2.92% | Disposed | (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Nov. 22, 2017 | SYY | M | 3,337 | · | · | 81,038 Direct | -3.95% | Disposed | (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Nov. 22, 2017 | SYY | F | 1,829 | $54.65 | $99,955 | 31,332 Direct | -5.52% | Disposed | 41.8% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Nov. 22, 2017 | SYY | M | 3,337 | $29.96 | $99,977 | 33,161 Direct | +11.19% | Acquired | 158.6% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Nov. 20, 2017 | SYY | F | 1,742 | $54.89 | $95,618 | 29,824 Direct | -5.52% | Disposed | 41.2% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Nov. 14, 2017 | SYY | F | 2,548 | $54.02 | $137,643 | 31,566 Direct | -7.47% | Disposed | 43.4% (price as of 2026-10-02) |
| Aug. 25, 2017 | SYY | A | 79,918 | · | · | 79,918 Direct | · | Acquired | (price as of 2026-10-02) |
Showing latest 100 of 111 transactions
P = Open-market purchase · S = Sale · A = Grant/award · M = Option exercise · G = Gift · F = Tax withholding
Insider transactions are not a recommendation; sales are often driven by liquidity or tax reasons.
Derivative holdings (Form 4 Table II) Options, RSUs and convertible securities reported on Form 4 Table II.
| Date | Ticker | Security | Underlying | Exercise price | Expiration | Shares | A/D |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Aug. 21, 2025 | SYY | Stock Options (Right to buy) | Common Stock | $80.98 | Aug. 20, 2035 | 35,215 | Acquired |
| July 22, 2025 | SYY | Stock Options (Right to buy) | Common Stock | $51.22 | Aug. 24, 2027 | 40,000 | Disposed |
| Jan. 2, 2025 | SYY | Stock Options (Right to buy) | Common Stock | $52.42 | Aug. 24, 2026 | 43,750 | Disposed |
| Aug. 21, 2024 | SYY | Stock Options (Right to buy) | Common Stock | $76.54 | Aug. 20, 2034 | 35,939 | Acquired |
| Sept. 11, 2023 | SYY | Stock Options (Right to buy) | Common Stock | $69.95 | Sept. 10, 2033 | 4,245 | Acquired |
| Aug. 10, 2023 | SYY | Stock Options (Right to buy) | Common Stock | $74.85 | Aug. 9, 2033 | 26,480 | Acquired |
| Aug. 18, 2022 | SYY | Common Stock | Common Stock | $85.57 | Aug. 17, 2032 | 30,619 | Acquired |
| April 21, 2022 | SYY | Stock Options (Right to buy) | Common Stock | $52.42 | Aug. 24, 2026 | 50,000 | Disposed |
| Feb. 16, 2022 | SYY | Stock Option (Right to Buy) | Common Stock | $40.59 | Nov. 17, 2025 | 75,526 | Disposed |
| Jan. 26, 2022 | SYY | Stock Option (Right to Buy) | Common Stock | $40.59 | Nov. 17, 2025 | 2,463 | Disposed |
| Aug. 19, 2021 | SYY | Stock Options (Right to buy) | Common Stock | $76.94 | Aug. 18, 2031 | 41,358 | Acquired |
| Dec. 7, 2020 | SYY | Stock Option (Right to Buy) | Common Stock | $38.89 | Nov. 18, 2024 | 36,403 | Disposed |
| Aug. 20, 2020 | SYY | Stock Options (Right to buy) | Common Stock | $58.08 | Aug. 19, 2030 | 49,613 | Acquired |
| Jan. 10, 2020 | SYY | Stock Option (Right to Buy) | Common Stock | $38.89 | Nov. 18, 2024 | 2,292 | Disposed |
| Jan. 9, 2020 | SYY | Stock Option (Right to Buy) | Common Stock | $38.89 | Nov. 18, 2024 | 900 | Disposed |
| Jan. 6, 2020 | SYY | Stock Option (Right to Buy) | Common Stock | $38.89 | Nov. 18, 2024 | 35,000 | Disposed |
| Dec. 20, 2019 | SYY | Stock Option (Right to Buy) | Common Stock | $33.40 | Nov. 14, 2023 | 47,643 | Disposed |
| Nov. 18, 2019 | SYY | Stock Options (Right to buy) | Common Stock | $38.89 | Nov. 18, 2024 | 2,571 | Disposed |
| Nov. 18, 2019 | SYY | Stock Options (Right to buy) | Common Stock | $33.40 | Nov. 14, 2023 | 2,994 | Disposed |
| Nov. 1, 2019 | SYY | Stock Options (Right to buy) | Common Stock | $33.40 | Nov. 14, 2023 | 25,000 | Disposed |
| Aug. 21, 2019 | SYY | Stock Options (Right to buy) | Common Stock | $72.80 | Aug. 20, 2029 | 75,929 | Acquired |
| Aug. 23, 2018 | SYY | Stock Options (Right to buy) | Common Stock | $75.08 | Aug. 22, 2028 | 74,649 | Acquired |
| Jan. 10, 2018 | SYY | Stock Options (Right to buy) | Common Stock | $29.96 | Nov. 13, 2019 | 40,000 | Disposed |
| Jan. 10, 2018 | SYY | Stock Options (Right to buy) | Common Stock | $29.96 | Nov. 13, 2019 | 41,038 | Disposed |
| Nov. 22, 2017 | SYY | Stock Options (Right to buy) | Common Stock | $29.96 | Nov. 13, 2019 | 3,337 | Disposed |
| Aug. 25, 2017 | SYY | Stock Options (Right to buy) | Common Stock | $51.22 | Aug. 24, 2027 | 79,918 | Acquired |
| Nov. 15, 2016 | SYY | Stock Options (Right to buy) | Common Stock | $27.65 | Nov. 14, 2018 | 9,125 | Disposed |
| Nov. 7, 2016 | SYY | Stock Options (Right to buy) | Common Stock | $27.65 | Nov. 14, 2018 | 16,500 | Disposed |
| Aug. 25, 2016 | SYY | Stock Options (Right to buy) | Common Stock | $52.42 | Aug. 24, 2026 | 93,750 | Acquired |
Exercise/conversion price is blank when not applicable (e.g. RSUs).
Initial ownership (Form 3) 6 holdings
Securities held when first becoming an insider, per SEC Form 3.
| Date | Ticker | Security | Shares | Ownership |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| July 13, 2016 | SYY | Common Stock | 40,991 | Direct |
| July 13, 2016 | SYY | Stock Option (Right to Buy) | 45,625 | Direct |
| July 13, 2016 | SYY | Stock Option (Right to Buy) | 84,375 | Direct |
| July 13, 2016 | SYY | Stock Option (Right to Buy) | 75,637 | Direct |
| July 13, 2016 | SYY | Stock Option (Right to Buy) | 77,166 | Direct |
| July 13, 2016 | SYY | Stock Option (Right to Buy) | 77,989 | Direct |
Compensation (DEF 14A)
Matched by name from proxy statements (DEF 14A) — verify against the filing.
| Fiscal year | Salary | Bonus | Stock awards | Option awards | Non-equity incentive | Pension change | Other | Total |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2023 | $749,025 | · | $1,745,799 | $740,980 | $848,808 | $9,906 | $147,950 | $4,242,469 |
| 2022 | $696,441 | · | $3,792,142 | $717,975 | $927,297 | $12,157 | $143,689 | $6,289,701 |
| 2021 | $704,388 | · | $1,517,979 | $666,799 | $988,199 | $135,948 | $81,989 | $4,095,302 |
Figures from the Summary Compensation Table of the company's proxy statement (DEF 14A). Compensation is not a recommendation.